Différences de chassis et comportement 360-CS-F430-430 Scuderia

[Franck 6 642]

Les Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale et 430 Scuderia sont réputées pour leur meilleur comportement, plus typé circuit.

Alors quelles sont vraiment les différences avec les Ferrari 360 Modena et F430 ?

Comment améliorer le comportement de votre 360 Modena ou F430 ?

Ce qui est commun :

- Toutes les versions de 360 et F430 utilisent le même chassis fabriqué par Alcoa,

- Toutes les versions de 360 et F430 utilisent les mêmes amortisseurs fabriqués par Sach,

- Toutes les versions de 360 et F430 utilisent les mêmes triangles de suspension inférieur et supérieur.

Les différences de comportement sont donc dûes :

1. A la réduction de poids d'environ 100 kg,

2. A la barre stabilisatrice arrière plus grosse,

3. Aux silentblocs plus durs sur les triangles de suspensions inférieur et supérieur,

4. Aux ressorts plus durs,

5. A la géométrie différente,

6. A la hauteur de caisse plus basse,

7. A l'ASR différent,

8. Aux pneus offrant plus de grip (Pirelli Rosso Corsa plus larges).

[Trois cinquante cinq 3 340]

Calibrage de la direction également,si mes souvenirs sont bons...sinon pas mieux Franck

La somme de ces differences fait une énorme difference à l arrivée!!!

[Franck 6 642]

Calibrage de la direction également,si mes souvenirs sont bons...

Je pense que tu as raison, dans mon souvenir la direction est plus directe aussi.

[dragon1964 7 169]

Je suis vraiment bluffé, je pensais que les différence étaient bien plus profonde !!!

Vraiment trés instructif...

[Franck 6 642]

Je suis vraiment bluffé, je pensais que les différence étaient bien plus profonde !!!

Vraiment trés instructif...

Il ne s'agit là que du chassis !  ;D

Il existe beaucoup plus de différences entre une 360 Modena et une CS, ou entre une F430 et une 430 Scuderia.

[Franck 6 642]

Le détail des différences de comportement (source : forum ClubScuderia.co.uk)

The REAL differences between 360 & CS handling

Subject: Detailed CS Handling Improvements over Modena

I have not seen a very technically detailed account of 'why' the CS handles so much better than the Modena. Why is that when they use the same dampers, same chassis and a lot of the same parts such as wishbones? They do indeed handle significantly better, a substantial and massive differences in handling actually. Between the Modena and the Challenge Stradale the CS completely outclasses its heavier brother in handling department in every way. This post helps attempt to blast the myth's from the changes Ferrari's engineers headed by their Lead engineer, Patrizio Moruzzi did to make such pronounced improvements without compromising its off-track manners in anyway.

There has been some mis-information on the parts front across the web, some people claiming that the cars where 'exactly' the same underneath, that ofcourse is not correct and this post illustrates the combination of all the little changes done by Ferrari made a huge collective difference. There are indeed extensive changes on the Challenge Stradale suspension that all help to make the car 3.5 seconds faster around Fiorano than the Modena. They took a holistic look at every facet of the handling, from tire grip, to weight, to aerodynamic downforce, to electronic software mappings to suspension geometry. Unspurprisingly with the focus on handling rather than luxury/ride quality the car turned out as the enthusiasts choice. Its epic!

CS Specific Titanium Springs

Front

Front L Spring (Titanium & uprated) Ferrari SKU 195443

Front R Spring (Titanium & uprated) Ferrari SKU 195443

Rear

Rear L Spring (Titanium & uprated) Ferrari SKU 195444

Rear R Spring (Titanium & uprated) Ferrari SKU 195444

The ride/handling compromise

The quality of the ride and handling of the Modena is influenced by many factors including the stiffness of the chassis, the springs, dampers and rollbars. For handling the softer spring on the Modena allowed more excessive pitch and roll angles in acceleration than on the CS. The optimum stiffness for best ride quality (as used in Modena) is less than optimal for the purest handling. Hence there is evidently a compromise to be made, on the CS the bias was more towards improved handling at the expense of some ride quality.

In line with this goal of outright handling the new springs where uprated by 20% and as a result they resisted pitch and roll better than the stock Modena springs which had better ride qualities. They where made from Titanium to help reduce unsprung weight which in turn helps with performance. Ferrari engineers judged the spring rates pretty successfully since they still where still quite soft (relative to Challenge cars) so they didn't destroy the ride quality completely while driving on normal roads) but at the same time they gave a substantial and noticeable improvement in handling on fast roads.

CS Weight Reduction

Another major improvement over the Modena which actually helped ride quality was the 70g-110kg weight reduction over the typically spec'd Modena. You could ofcourse help yourself here when buying a Modena in choosing the lowest weight options by spec'ing Carbon seats (a major weight saver) as well as the optional Racing Exhaust (which became standard on the CS).

Overall this meant that in actual fact the ride quality wasn't really percieved by many as that much worse.

CS/430 Scuderia Rear Anti-rollbar

Rear

Rear Anti Rollbar (Hollow and 20% uprated) Ferrari SKU 198416

Q. Why did Ferrari engineers uprate the rear anti-roll bar?

Uprated anti-roll bars are one of the most effective ways of improving not only the handling of a car but also outright grip levels. The biggest advantage of the anti-roll bar is that you can limit roll in corners whilst still retaining suspension travel and a good ride. Uprating the anti-roll bar for a larger one increases the roll stiffness at that end of the car.

As the engineers who worked on the CS knew, as they increased the roll stiffness they also improved the weight transfer properties of the 360 greatly improving the negative handling attributes that the 360 was known for, essentially snap oversteer. They discovered that the excessive body roll on the Modena caused unfavourable geometry changes, loss of camber and caster. The stiff anti-roll bar keeps the rear wheels closer to it's optimum angles and helps reduce the tendancy for the CS to go into snap oversteer compared with the Modena.

Uprating the bar at only thre rear meant that the rear of tires could carry a higher load. This changed the handling balance to be more rear focused to increase the outright grip. For example on the Modena if you uprate the front bar only the car will reduce it's outright grip level as it already has too much front roll stiffness and not enough rear. To make the CS handle better they only needed to improve the stiffeness on the rear bar only. They already had improved front end grip anyway on the CS via aero improvements which mean that at just 62mph the front bumper is generating 22 lbs of downforce at the front of the car.

Uprated Flanbloc's (From 360 Challenge cars)

These flanbloc's keep the suspension geometry well aligned during hard cornering/braking for improved handling responsiveness. They will control the geometry so much more accurately during rapid suspension movements and they will even reduce tire wear.

The Modena uses rubber bushes which acts as that sound barrier, damping out noise and vibration. Rubber is also very very cheap. All the Challenge cars run these uprated bushes for significantly better handling.

Anti Roll bar bushes (front and rear)

Upper arm bushes (front and rear)

Lower arm bushes (front and rear)

Damper bushes (front and rear)

All the bushes where changed too to the uprated 360 Challenge items, see Challenge part numbers or contact me for more information. *Also worth mentioning that an upgrade people are now doing is going to the 430 Challenge bushes which are an improvement further still.

Its also worth pointing out that many Challenge race teams I spoke to about the flanblocs told me (at least on the 360 Challenge ones) that they changed their bushes regularly, at least once per season. How many owners have EVER changed their bushes? Even more important on cars such as the original 360 Modena which had rubber ones which degrade over time and greatly reduce handling control. Its probably the biggest (easiest) improvements you can make to your cars to replace them with 430 Challenge ones and get a full Geometry done!

Uprated Tires

Front: 225/35 ZR19 up from 215/45 ZR18

Rear: 285/35 ZR19 up from 275/40 ZR18

Ferrari worked in conjunction with Pirelli to produce a tire that was more biased to the handling characterists of the CS to greatly improve its grip levels over the stock street rubber. There are ofcourse even more extreme rubber out there such as Toyo R888's but overall the Pirelli Rosso Corsa's where the best compromise for a car that was estimated by Ferrari engineers to spend 80% of its life on roads and 20% on the track.

Not only did they improve the compound stickiness they also enlarged the cross section width on both the front and rear tires a little as well as lowering the profile of the tire. Normally this would worsen the ride quality but due to the improvements in weight reduction (especially important here the unsprung weight) from the lower weight braking system (16% lighter) and the lighter springs the ride again didn't really suffer.

Uprated Damper Suspension Software

Ferrari engineers added a new dimension to the handling of the standard sach dampers (which are pretty good but they are not used on the Challenge cars) by re-writing the software. They added 'Race' to complement an updated 'Sports' map. This did away with the 'normal' map from the Modena. The Race mode for the suspension as you may expect stiffens up the responses from the dampers making the handling sharper still.

Just like for the TCU (Transmission Control Unit), its the same identical computer just with reprogrammed software on its flash chip.

Rubber vs Uprated Bushes (usually Polyurethane)

Rubber suspension bushes are designed to insulate the moving aluminium suspension components from each other. They work pretty well when new but as always there are trade off's at work here. Polyurethane bushings (and solid bushes) are more like a bearing in that they allow smooth movement of the suspension component (up & down) without any unwanted twisting action, or side to side movement you get with rubber. Bushings get crushed and rapidly deteriorate, that is inevitable with rubber bushings as it will go off over time. Rubber as a material does have advantages for manufacturers as they don't squeak or feel harsh and are cheap and easy to mass produce.

Overall worn bushes will make the car feel 'slack' and you'll never feel like truely pushing on hard. Worn strut control rod bushings will cause excessive caster change and make the car want to change lanes when the brakes are applied. Worn control arm bushings will give you excessive tyre wear on the inside edge of the tread. Check the geometery first and if its good suspect the bushes.

Suspension wear rates differ from driver to driver and car to car, they depend on such things as :

    * Bushing material age - Over time the rubber degrades and decay's.

    * Driving style - Sporty driving puts a lot of stress on these little rubber bushes.

    * Road Conditions - Are you track driving or on good quality/poor quality roads?

Unfortunately on the Ferrari it is not so cheap to do either because replacing the bushes is neither simple or quick to do, quite the contrary, its very time consuming even though the parts are relatively inexpensive (we have double wishbone suspension with 16 bushes!). Therefore it requires a LOT of time and can run into thousands of pounds if you get someone else to do it due to labour rates on this stuff. If your patient and do it yourself you can save big £££ on labour and make your car handle 'like new car' by replacing all the bushes.

Replacing all 16 bushings from the suspension control arms with either the 360 Challenge or the F430 Challenge bushings will give you a very firm ride and significantly impact the ride quality on stock shocks and springs. Yes it will improve handling control but only the most sporty drivers who regularly attend track days will get any benefit from it, if not its still worth replacing them (but with brand new bushes) if they are getting on a bit. Everyone gets benefit from doing this on a 4+ year old car.

If your going to go this serious you need to consider whether you could live with the harshness your going to be adding into your ride if you go down the challenge bushes route. Try driving a CS or 430 and see if you like the raw feel first.

[Franck 6 642]

Et pour les possesseurs de Ferrari 360 Modena qui souhaiteraient améliorer le comportement de leur Ferrari :

Ferrari Suspension Re-fresh/Service - Part Numbers

Model: 360 Modena

These part numbers listed in this post allow 360 Modena owners/enthusiasts to carry out a full bush and ball joint refresh to bring their tired suspension back into spec and make the handling feel fresh again and allow them to experience much improved handling characteristics. If you don't want any harsh feeling or worsening ride quality these are the parts to fit. If you want to improve handling over stock consider the 360 Challenge or 430 Challenge parts which are fitted as stock on the Challenge Stradale/430 Scuderia. Part numbers to follow in another post.

Some Modena's are now beginning to be classed as 'Classic' status by some insurers (10 years old is the entry requirement), suspension on early cars from the 1999-2004 car era will definately be feeling soggy by now you will notice a huge difference once this is done in handling control. You may also want to get the shocks and springs tested or replaced too.

It is worth nothing also that ball joints are a common weakness on the 360/430 suspension and reguarly fail with subsequent 'knocking' noises which results in poor handling. For an improvement over stock parts I'd recommend buying the alternative higher quality parts from Hills Engineering which fit both the front and rear suspension wishbone arms.

Front Suspension

Front Dampers

Upper

SKU-212948 SILENT BLOCK. QTY 2 £ 39.42

Lower

SKU-157630 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £ 47.87

Suspension Arms

Upper

SKU-184610 FLANBLOC D.30 QTY 4 £ 66.15

SKU-203633 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £ 99.04 **1

Lower

SKU-184609 FLANBLOC D.34 QTY 4 £ 68.09

SKU-203632 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £121.02 **2

Rear Suspension

Rear Dampers

Upper

SKU-212948 SILENT BLOCK. QTY 2 £ 39.42

Lower

SKU-157630 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £ 47.87

Suspension Arms

Upper

SKU-184610 FLANBLOC D.30 QTY 4 £ 66.15

SKU-203633 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £ 99.04 **1

Lower

SKU-184609 FLANBLOC D.34 QTY 4 £ 68.09

SKU-203632 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £121.02 **2

--

**1 Hills Engineering Ferrari OEM Replacement Part

UBJ-360 - Upper Ball Joint (Suitable for Front & Rear Wishborne Arm) -

360 Stainless Steel (Ferrari OEM is only plated)

SKU-203633

**2 Hills Engineering Ferrari OEM Replacement Part

LBJ-360

Lower Ball Joint (Front & Rear Wishborne Arm) -

360 - Stainless Steel (Ferrari OEM is only plated)

SKU-203632

[Franck 6 642]

Idem avec les pièces de Challenge Stradale :

Ferrari Suspension Re-fresh/Service - Part Numbers

Model: Challenge Stradale/430 Scuderia - fits ALL 360's/430's

These are the parts which make the suspension upper and lower arms have much better control so the car handles much better, they replace rubber parts with uprated firmer bushes made from delrin. These fit all 360 and 430 models and where original fit on CS and 430 Scuderia and 16M (the more hardcore models) and all the Challenge cars (360's and 430's). They where not fitted by Ferrari engineers to standard models as they increase firmness and remove some of the suppleness from the cars ride quality on everyday roads. Something CS and 430 Scuderia owners don't mind for the extra improvements they give in chassis control.

The part numbers listed in this post (shown in RED) allow any 360 or F430 Owner to carry out a full flamblock upgrade. While these parts are from the CS and 430 Scuderia they still fit on the the regular models (i.e. 360 Modena, 360 Spider, F430 Coupe, F430 Spider) and provide an improved handling control at the expense of some ride quality. The shocks use the same bushes part numbers as 360 Modena so aren't illustrated here.

As in previous post it is worth nothing that ball joints are the same crappy ones used on the regular models, they are a common weakness on the 360/430 suspension and reguarly fail with subsequent 'knocking' noises which results in poor handling. For an improvement over stock parts I'd recommend buying the alternative higher quality parts from Hills Engineering which fit both the front and rear suspension wishbone arms.

Front Suspension

Suspension Arms

Upper

SKU-209167 FLAMBLOC..... QTY 4 £ 75.75 <--- uprated

SKU-203633 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £ 99.04 **1

Lower

SKU-209166 FLAMBLOC..... QTY 4 £ 78.56 <--- uprated

SKU-203632 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £121.02 **2

Rear Suspension

Suspension Arms

Upper

SKU-209167 FLAMBLOC..... QTY 4 £ 75.75 <--- uprated

SKU-203633 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £ 99.04 **1

Lower

SKU-209166 FLAMBLOC..... QTY 4 £ 78.56 <--- uprated

SKU-203632 BALL JOINT... QTY 2 £121.02 **2

--

**1 Hills Engineering Ferrari OEM Replacement Part

UBJ-360 - Upper Ball Joint (Suitable for Front & Rear Wishborne Arm) -

360 Stainless Steel (Ferrari OEM is only plated)

SKU-203633

**2 Hills Engineering Ferrari OEM Replacement Part

LBJ-360

Lower Ball Joint (Front & Rear Wishborne Arm) -

360 - Stainless Steel (Ferrari OEM is only plated)

SKU-203632

[Franck 6 642]

Sur les diagrammes ci-dessous, vous voyez en rouge comment le chassis de la Ferrari F430 a été renforcé par Ferrari par rapport à celui de la Ferrari 360 Modena :

[charlyboy 63]

Bonjour, 

 

Très intéressant sujet !

 

est-ce que les données sur les pièces à changer sur une F430 pour améliorer son comportement routier sont toujours d'actualité ?

 

je désire faire vérifier la géométrie de ma voiture (F430 Spider) et je me disais que probablement, changer ces pièces avant serait une bonne chose, ma voiture ayant sept ans !

 

Est-ce que quelqu'un ici l'a déjà fait ?

 

merci

[houston 602]

petite question sur la hauteur de caisse entre 360 modena et stradale.

comme tu le dis les amortisseurs sont les memes sauf les ressorts qui sont plus gros, donc un peu plus raid.

par contre les hauteurs de caisse sont différentes par rapport aux reglages des amortisseurs (on redescend les 2 contres ecrous sur le filtage des amortisseurs c'est ça?) ou bien les ressorts sont aussi plus court?

 

merci

[Trois cinquante cinq 3 340]

 je désire faire vérifier la géométrie de ma voiture (F430 Spider)

 

Chez qui ?

[Trois cinquante cinq 3 340]

 les ressorts sont aussi plus court

 

Les ressorts sont plus courts et plus rigides. Il y a des bornes min et max usines.Il faut etre homogène lorsque tu touches à la hauteur de caisse afin de conserver le tatio de plonge avant/arrière. La hauteur de caisse avant definit ta stabilité au freinage et ton cabrage à l acceleration.La hauteur de caisse arrière definit ton rapport au sous/sur-virage.Ne jamais oublier que c est le train arrière qui est directeur. Enfin,toucher à la hauteur de caisse,c est "obligatoirement" faire une géometrie derrière,because tous les angles sont automatiquement faussés après la manip ! 

[David 84 3 427]

La hauteur de caisse avant definit ta stabilité au freinage et ton cabrage à l acceleration.

La hauteur de caisse arrière definit ton rapport au sous/sur-virage.

Ne jamais oublier que c est le train arrière qui est directeur. 

Là, tu t'enflammes un peu quand même.....

 

Pour la stabilité au freinage... en quelque sorte

Pour la cabrage à l'accel, c'est uniquement sur le train arrière en fonction du positionnement des ancrages de triangles

La hauteur de caisse arrière modifie certes ce rapport mais si tu doit ajuster l'équilibre, mécaniquement, c'est avec les dureté de BAR que tu le fais....

Pour le train arrière directeur, 100% d'acc avec toi... mais en marche arrière ! 

 

Si le cœur t'en dit, tu trouveras quelques pistes à explorer et explications ici 

[Trois cinquante cinq 3 340]

 Pour la cabrage à l'accel, c'est uniquement sur le train arrière en fonction du positionnement des ancrages de triangles

 

David,structurellement ok;mais plus tu diminues ta hauteur de caisse,moins tu as de mouvements de caisse.Sur les central arrière,la repartition des masses est inferieure sur l avant  .

 

 Pour le train arrière directeur, 100% d'acc avec toi... mais en marche arrière

 

Ce que je voulais dire,c est que ta motricité est sur le train arrière qui va imprimer le rapport de l auto au sous/sur-virage en fonction de l assiette et de la géo  !

[Trois cinquante cinq 3 340]

Je vais lire ta bible, je te poste ce qui fut mon premier tutoriel(un poil moins réçente semble-t-il)

 

  http://www.ac-nancy-metz.fr/enseign/Autocompetences/2_ressources_pedagogiques/3_liaisons_au_sol/stockage_le%E7ons_technologie/geometrie-trains-roulants.pdf

Modifié le 18 février 2014 par Trois cinquante cinq

[David 84 3 427]

Tu verras, c'est béton.

Par contre on découvre quelques réglages "de fou" : avec suffisamment d'anti-plongée par exemple, au freinage, la suspension avant remonte  . Par contre comme l'arrière remonte davantage, la voiture prend quand même une assiette "piqueuse", mais relativement peu.

On voit aussi qu'avec une hauteur de caisse de l'ordre de 5-6 cm, l'appui aéro est / par 10. A partir de là on comprend que sur nos Ferrari, avec + de 10cm.... l'aéro du fond compte pour peanut's !!!

Ah si on voit bien l'influence des points d'ancrage (surtout à l'arrière)... ça rappelle les réglages de la F40 et 288GTO mais aussi ,les modifs apportées aux 348 

 

Enfin, l'essentiel, c'est que c'est vachement complexe, tout interfère sur tout. A partir de là, il vaut mieux rester sur des solutions parfaitement établies et ne pas vouloir trop jouer les apprentis sorcier 

Modifié le 18 février 2014 par David 84

[charlyboy 63]

Chez qui ?

 

Ben, quand on habite dans les 06, c'est à la STAC à Valauris. 

 

En lisant ce post je me disais que ce serait peut-être pas tout à fait idiot de faire les modifs avant de refaire la géométrie.

 

 

Par contre, si l'un d'entre vous pense qu'il faut aller ailleurs, merci de le dire 

Modifié le 18 février 2014 par charlyboy

[F355QV70 3 734]

Dans le sud ,  Esprit Competition à Aubagne 

 

Par contre je n'ai pas apprécié les amortisseurs Stac sur une de mes autos .

Modifié le 18 février 2014 par F355QV70